It's All or Nothing

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

So, I started my OtBOF study yesterday and had a great discussion. One of the sticking points that folks had was a discussion around the "All or Nothing" approach some people have to the Bible. By this I mean the idea that you have to believe all and everything in the Bible or the whole thing is wrong.

Where did this idea come from? Why do some Lutherans believe this?

We had a great discussion around this which is going to lead to chapter 2 of the book, I see us going to the Jonah discussion. What are your thoughts?

[bruce metcalf]

having just in the last several years been drawn to the faith I have alot of questions !! with the encouragement of our Pastor we started Lay school this past fall and the teachers are very open to our questions and even expect them !!! many of our friends who belong to different churchs are ammased at how open we are to questioning the scripture !! I explain that by studying with an open mind the scripture come alive and you are able to understand !! Also by understanding the alittle of first century lanuage and culture you can understand why a passage was written the way it was !! Knowledge is understanding !!

[The Rev Dr Keith A. Spencer]

Maybe we ought to stop using words like inerrant and inspired and say exactly what we mean since folks confuse the meanings of the two all of the time. As rich as the Holy Scriptures are, the God that they reveal is far richer indeed!

[MaryBeth Tank Buschmann]

MaryBeth Tank Buschmann said:

The Rev Dr Keith A. Spencer said:

Maybe we ought to stop using words like inerrant and inspired and say exactly what we mean since folks confuse the meanings of the two all of the time. As rich as the Holy Scriptures are, the God that they reveal is far richer indeed!

[Brenda D Romig]

The truth is that even what people want to call fables still have valuable lessons and information in them you have to read, meditate, and pray about what message you are supposed to be getting from any particular passage, verse, psalm, chapter, or word that stikes you as having some particular meaning to you. To me the Bible is God's personal message to each of us you need to get in there and read it for yourself if you do not understand something ask God to reveal to you what it means, if you are relying on your minister to teach you all you need to know you are going to miss a lot of what God has for you. I have never been involved in a group bible study although I have done a lot of studying on my own. I was baptised when I was ten however I did not begin to seriously study the bible until 2004 when I was going through a really rough time in my life and I cried out to God in my distress and he answered me. My life is not perfect but by the grace of God I am still alive he has saved me from an aenurism, breast cancer, an asthma attack that landed me in the hospital for four days on oxygen, He brought me through the loss of a child He gave me comfort when my nephew was deployed to Afghanistan and then to Iraq because of God's promise in Psalm 91 I knew my nephew was coming home and I did not fear for his safety at all while he was there and by the grace of God he is home. Theres more but I just cannot tell everthing that God does for me and my family daily every moment is something to be thankful for and we are richly blessed every moment we live and because he has given us so much how can we not give something back even if it is only a smile for a sad or lonely person you see on the street because that is what it is all about serving God as Jesus served. If you choose to believe only parts of the Bible that is your choice and someday all will be revealed to you God willing you will enjoy all the blessings He has laid up for you. Peace to all. I love you and I love God for He is good.

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

Hey Bruce,

I actually forgot about this conversation because I wrote it in October of 2008 as you can see from the date at the top. At the time, this was a new site and the one of the only things being discussed was Opening the Book of Faith study and I was going through conversations as my congregation journeyed through this. So, the audience at the time of the writing knew OtBOF meant Opening the Book of Faith. I cannot help that this older conversation restarted again.
There are also major pieces of the conversation missing because one of the members who was discussing on this actually left the site, so some of the conversation is also disjointed because when a member leaves, all of their conversations leave with them. So, please bear that in mind while reading this.

[Pastor Keith Spencer]

Hi Justin - long time no hear on this thread!

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

Thanks Keith. I was actually surprised and wouldn't have realized it was still active if Bruce hadn't also e-mailed me what he wrote. Now I see it has new life. I do have a small feeling of "Here we go again" happening.

[Sue Stover]

MaryBeth, I don't think your whole document got attached and sent ...


MaryBeth Tank Buschmann said:

MaryBeth Tank Buschmann said:

The Rev Dr Keith A. Spencer said:

Maybe we ought to stop using words like inerrant and inspired and say exactly what we mean since folks confuse the meanings of the two all of the time. As rich as the Holy Scriptures are, the God that they reveal is far richer indeed!

[carol goulet]

The picking apart of the 'differences' found in scripture has always bugged me. Having a mixed bag of church history I have developed a kind of confused hard line understanding of it. With 2 years for a fundimentialist bible college under my belt I can agrue most 'differences away'. I was so focused on the need to prove scripture as 'all' that the reason it was written got lost. I have finally come to an understanding and it has been through a study offered by Augsburg Fortress as part of the foundation series with the Book "Faith Studies" the study called "Making sense of Scripture" It is really cool. It is in the format of a conversation at the kitchen table over coffee. The part (and I'm only up to chapter 4) that hit me even though I had heard it before was the writers were each talking to a different aundience emphasizing what they had experienced and wanted to share. Like Matthew was speaking to Jewish Believers or that John was trying to get accross the point that Jesus was the son of God the true passover lamb. One example they use is the story of cleansing the temple, all the gospels but John put it at the end of Jesus' life, John puts it in chapter 2 because he wants us, as he says in 20:29-30, to know that though there are many other signs and wonders but he was writing these down to us with a purpose that we might believe Jesus is the Christ. The details and order of things were not as important as the message that this gospel was written to give us. There are thousands of pages written to justify or explain away what people see as differences in the bible. In that we lose track of the message. Jesus tells us the point is to love God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves. That is Gods message throughout scripture and when we get stuck in picking it apart we tend to lose that. It has taught me a new way to look at scripture and a renewed tolerance and respect for others who may look at things a little different.
Carol

[carol goulet]

Amen

The Rev Dr Keith A. Spencer said:

Maybe we ought to stop using words like inerrant and inspired and say exactly what we mean since folks confuse the meanings of the two all of the time. As rich as the Holy Scriptures are, the God that they reveal is far richer indeed!

[bruce metcalf]

First off I'm far from an expert in the Bible but at least in my experience those who feel the Bible is difficult are the one's who try to interpet the Bible to match their ,wants and needs instead of reading it first through the eyes of the people it was first written for !!! When you read it through their eyes first you see many simiarities to our problems and that makes it much less difficult !!! Also when I hear concerns about the differences in say the gospels I tell them to do as we did in our Lay school ,,,we compared them and looked at the different people they were written for,then the differences made sence !!!
the more we learn the more we understand!!
God is at work ,,all we have to do is follow him !!
bruce metcalf

[carol goulet]

I agree, if I were writing a letter written to someone who had never heard of Jesus it would be differnet then one written to someone who had walked with Him, if the letter were to someone who grew up in the Jewish faith I would start with the conection to the Old Testament (as Mtt. did). The authors audience required the author to take a different route to stress the point they were getting across. i.e. Matthew Jesus as the fullfilment of the OT, John the divinity of Christ, different audiences different emphasis. Scripture is there to reach us whatever our back ground is, the message is as you said, is to follow.
Carol

bruce metcalf said:

First off I'm far from an expert in the Bible but at least in my experience those who feel the Bible is difficult are the one's who try to interpet the Bible to match their ,wants and needs instead of reading it first through the eyes of the people it was first written for !!! When you read it through their eyes first you see many simiarities to our problems and that makes it much less difficult !!! Also when I hear concerns about the differences in say the gospels I tell them to do as we did in our Lay school ,,,we compared them and looked at the different people they were written for,then the differences made sence !!!
the more we learn the more we understand!!
God is at work ,,all we have to do is follow him !!
bruce metcalf