It's All or Nothing

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

So, I started my OtBOF study yesterday and had a great discussion. One of the sticking points that folks had was a discussion around the "All or Nothing" approach some people have to the Bible. By this I mean the idea that you have to believe all and everything in the Bible or the whole thing is wrong.

Where did this idea come from? Why do some Lutherans believe this?

We had a great discussion around this which is going to lead to chapter 2 of the book, I see us going to the Jonah discussion. What are your thoughts?

[Jacob Bach]

I think the "all or nothing" argument you've likely been hearing begs the question, as in: what does "all" mean? We Lutherans would hold with Peter that all the words are inspired (not always dictated), but it's not the Bible that we worship--it's what (who) the Bible's words point to--the LIVING WORD as Jesus, the incarnate Christ promised and written about in the words we find in the book(s)--the logos present at the beginning as John puts it. Presiding Bishop Hanson has written about the survey of ELCA members that shows plenty of us who choose an answer describing our convictions about the Bible that the words are literally true and inerrant. That's popular terminology these days, and the dispensationalists and fundamentalists that push that interpretation or approach to how to define the Bible have been much more vocal (and successful) at marketing that view. As Hanson points out eloquently, we have something to offer that is unique and valuable, but first we must become fluent in the language (which you're doing) and familiar with the NARRATIVE. Our initiative must do both, but mostly, we've been focusing only on the oral/aural/"language of faith" part of this imperative. (That's a critical task, but not "all" that we need to do.)

Lutherans have a special theological insight in partial answer to your question, too, and you're living it. The printed words are not "all" there is. The WORD of God is not just captured on the printed page, and it doesn't even reside in Jesus alone (the LIVING WORD.) God's word also goes forth to work God's will in spoken (or "proclaimed") form as well, and God's Holy Spirit calls, gathers, and enlightens us in ministry to each other in community. (As Dr. Harry Wendt would put it, there is no such thing as "Private Christianity!") It's not just about what I believe, but how I act and play out Jesus' servant role to those around me that makes the difference. And that explicitly includes exploring the meanings in the Bible in the community of believers, accepting corrections when called for and challenging what doesn't seem to fit--as God has given us to see things at this point. In short, one key part of the "answer" to your question is found in our living up to Luther's concept of the "priesthood of all believers", ministering to one another as Jesus commanded.

Another part of the "answer" is a kind of mirror reflection of what's implied your "all or nothing" question. Is the Bible itself simply the sum of its parts? (Is that "all there is", or is there a narrative that matters?) The Bible--even though written over centuries and cannonized only after general acceptance within that same community of believers, has an integrity and unity that is hard to see when all we get is "Bible Study" is passages. As a part of their role in this initiative, AFP is contemplating publishing some helpful resources to provide a Bible "flyover" for individual or small group study. (They'll do so if enough people ask for it. That's their mission nowadays as the "publishing ministry of ELCA . . .") "The Mighty Acts of God", (circa 1960) was such an effort. (It's out of print, but you can find it used on Amazon.com.) Crossways International (see crossways.org) offers an integrative, "big picture" exploration that can be done in one hour (video of their Biblical timeline) or in a series of lessons ranging from 14 weeks up to two years (sixty lessons covering all the books of the Bible. This well-received effort, driven by a Seminex pastor but non-denominational in delivery, has found its way around the world into 50 countries, with thousands of grateful students, yet millions of ELCA members have not heard of it . . .)

Another way to think of the unity of the Bible emerges from BoF's Director Diane Jacobson in her lesson on Psalm 1, available as a free wave file. Her treatment of this super-short psalm is downright gorgeous. Psalm 1 invites us to DELIGHT in the study of God's Scriptures (law/Torah/"instruction). She does, and in this opening greeting to BoF participants featuring this simple, short psalm, she shows how the psalmists leads us to a greater appreciation of "all" of God's word--from the "law" itself in the Pentateuch to the restoration in Revelation--"all" of the Book of Faith!

Hope this helps. BTW, check our local website at egoodshepherd.org to see how we are tackling "all" of God's word via an "Ebert & Roper"-based format, condensing our Bible exploration into two weekly sessions for each of the books, starting with the Pentateuch between now and Christmas. (We've just engaged Genesis, and the people that are exploring the Book of Faith together with us have largely not engaged in an organized "Bible Study" for at least ten years!

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

Thank you Jacob for your response, but what I was asking about was what came up in the first part of my study of Opening the Book of Faith and that was some folks had the thought that if you say that parts of the Bible are not true, then you have to throw away the whole Bible. Everything has to be taken literally in other words otherwise you don't truly believe in the Bible or you cannot believe in the whole Bible if you question one bit of it.

I was wondering where this idea came from and how it filtered into the Lutheran tradition that recognizes that parts of the Bible are allegory or folk tale as well as true stories that happened to people.

This discussion scared me that folks feel that you cannot wrestle with the Bible.

[Chad King]

Thanks Justin - It is late here, so forgive me if I ramble...

This actually reminds me of something one of my professors shared in a Bible survey class several years ago. While it was not a comment specific to Lutherans, it does bear some consideration when thinking about the broader Christian church and how many have approached questioning the Bible, and I think it does filter down to how many Lutherans may think about the Bible.

The statement he made talked about how doubt and questioning have often been associated with a lack of faith. Questioning or doubting any part of the Bible shows that you don't have faith in the whole Bible as a single, unified whole; therefore you disbelieve the whole Bible. (I know, I know - but I have actually heard this argument preached from the pulpit!)

Often, I think much of this "all or nothing" perspective may come from fear. We are afraid that working through our doubts will destroy our faith as opposed to strengthen it. (Have we so little faith that we think our doubts are mightier than God is?) We are perhaps afraid of dealing with our doubts because it can be hard and challenging. And we may equate making the blanket statement of "I believe in the literal interpretation of the whole Bible" with a strong personal faith, and questioning that statement may make us look or feel weak.

What if we actually had to think about what we read, evaluate it, process it, converse about it, reflect on it? Are we so afraid that in wrestling with these kinds of questions about the Bible, it might actually change us?

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[David Schoenknecht]

As for me - going to the story of of the healing of the blind man in John 9 is helpful. This guy is a hoot - profound in his burgeoning belief, yet completely other then the "sighted" Pharisees. "The man answered, 'Here is an astonishing thing! You do not know where he comes from, and yet he opened my eyes!'"

Jesus meets up with him later and offers what I consider to be a pertinent insight for all of us who are blind to the absolute truth of God: "Jesus heard that they had driven him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" He answered, "And who is he, sir? Tell me, so that I may believe in him." Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and the one speaking with you is he." He said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped him. Jesus said, "I came into this world for judgment so that those who do not see may see, and those who do see may become blind." Some of the Pharisees near him heard this and said to him, "Surely we are not blind, are we?" Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would not have sin. But now that you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

Dare to be blind! It's OK.

I love our Book of Faith!

[Rollie Smith]

Another way to approach the “all or nothing” is to look at it this way. Either the Bible has all that we need or it has nothing that we need. I would surmise that of those reading this, that we would have a consensus here that the Bible doesn't have nothing we need (double negative intended). In other words it is not the case that the Bible has nothing. If one thinks that the Bible has nothing that we need, please don't go away, one needs to understand what I'm about to say. Now the question now becomes “Does the Bible have all that we need?' To a point, the answer is “Yes.” Here is what I mean. Four years ago I was visited by missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As I understood them, they say that The Book of Mormon is something that is needed beyond our Holy Bible in order to reconciled with our Creator and to receive His Redemption. I was brought up in the old American Lutheran Church, and I believe them, The Latter-day Saints, to be wrong on this point. I believe that we receive salvation by Grace through Faith, and that God's plan for salvation didn't need to be put on hold for 1800 years for Joseph Smith to come along. God's plan for our salvation is revealed to us in His Word, in the spoken Word, the written Word, and in the Living Word, that is, in Christ. So it is in this way that the Bible is all that we need. And in saying this, I realize that there is another element, the Holy Spirit, that we need, but the Holy Spirit is revealed to us in the Word as well.

[Erma Wolf]

Pastor Johnson, I am just getting started with the Book of Faith materials. One thing that occurs to me with what you are describing is that part of the problem might be with the use of the word "true." The Bible is true. It may also be the case that not everything in the Bible is factual, as we judge certain events to be objective, provable, historical or scientific facts and other events to not be facts. Is the story of Jonah true? Yes. Is it a factual, historical account? Ah, there comes the controversy! In the current Lutheran Women Today Bible study the question is raised regarding the book of Ruth, is it a factual, historical account of the ancestress of King David? I think that Ruth is true, but I agree with Ed Campbell of the Anchor Bible commentary on Ruth that it is probably an imaginative telling of the story about a probably real couple, Boaz and Ruth, who were really ancestors of David.
I think what happens is that when many of us hear that parts of the Bible is not "true," what springs to mind is the accusation is being made that parts of the Bible are a lie. I don't think that is what you are trying to say, but perhaps avoiding the term "true" and talking about some parts of the Bible being more likely to be similar to the parables would help your group. I'm curious what you think.

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

Thanks Erma for your reply. I just wanted to clarify that I did not make the statement, but rather it was brought up in the class. This fundamentalistic take on the Bible in the Lutheran church really surprised me. In fact, it did come up when I was talking about Jonah and said that there probably was not a Jonah, but that did not invalidate the truth of the Bible. This shocked some member of the group who said that if Jonah was not a true person, then the rest of the Bible could come up in question and therefore is not true. Either Jonah was a real person or we should just throw out the whole Bible.
When I pressed more on this point, it came to a question about even questioning what is in the Bible. Some felt that you should never question the content of the Bible otherwise again it is invalidated.

This point of view shocked me, since I grew up Lutheran, I just kind of assumed that most people would know that some parts of the Bible are allegory, some are folklore, and some are true stories. I cannot wait to see what folks think of chapter 2 in the OtBoF study which is this week.

[Jennifer Owen]

We just finished chapter 3: How Lutherans Read the Bible tonight at Bible Study. It's a small group, 5 + myself. They are well read and informed; I've used with modification the questions in the leaders guide, and we have done some of the activities, again with modification....

Jonah is a good book to use. Not only is it lifted up several times in the book, but we just heard part of the story as the OT Reading a few weeks ago. ....

We looked at the Point of View Option toward the end (the various points of view found in Jonah). As we laughed about the image drawn of putting sackcloth on the animals (Jonah 3:10), the question raised by one of the group was if we get or could get so caught up in the details (of asking the questions raised in Chapter 3 of BoF), that we lose sight of what's truly important in the story?

[Nancy Walter]

I believe the Bible is given to us a map or guide. I have never seen a map in my life in which there is only one way to arrive at a destination. Scripture is made to be opened, considered, chewed over and interpreted --- a Lutheran professor told us in a class that we have a duty to do so. We are created in the image of God and, to my way of believing, God finds new ways to reveal God's self to me every day.

Just as a map can provide alternate routes to my "way," the Bible opens up new ways of journeying in faith.

God gave us intelligence, intuition and a desire to seek and grow. What better way to use these wonderful gifts than in studying the Word, the story of God's pursuit of us?

Many find comfort in taking the Bible just as it is; in an uncertain world --- especially these days --- having something concrete provides security. But, when we don't study the context of time and culture in which the Bible was written, we miss so much richness!

Lead on to the big fish!
Nancy Walter

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

I wasn't sure where to post this, so it put it in both Friday Conversation and here. I LOVE the analogy of a map, because before I find my way I get angry at the map and turn it every which way and throw a tantrum. Then I calm down and come back and the map is still there saying the same thing that it always had, I'm just in a better place to receive it.

I have been thinking about all or nothing and I have been reading the posts about this topic. What concerns is the fear of questioning. If we fear questioning the Bible and God, do we really have faith?

There also often isn't really a reason to question until something happens in your life, whether it be a sick child, a divorce, a gay or lesbian loved one coming out, an act of violence or any of the other of the things that shake our faith. Big events should impact our faith, it's unrealistic to expect that something that can rock our whole world, would leave our faith untouched. It is out of that though where true faith grows.

My belief is that the creator of infinity and life can handle my questions. I was blessed (or cursed, so my partner would say) with an argumentative and passionate personality, so I enjoy a heated discussion. This is how I learn and process and grow. And through every trial of my life and some rather firey prayers I have come out each time, with a stronger and deeper commitment and love of my faith.

[Rollie Smith]

Where did this idea come from?

Oh me, I'm not sure where to start. I'm not so good at this, like Moses I need an Arron. But here goes. Go to Genesis 3. The second question the Lord our God asks Adam and Eve, “Who told you that you were naked?” Isn't what He is in effect saying is “Why are you paying any attention to anybody but ME?” Who exactly are we listening to when we hear that a certain passage is a fable or allegory? What do we risk if we choose to believe that these were events that actually happened? Now before we go on, let me say that I know our Lord used allegory, like when He lamented over Jerusalem and wanted to gather the city to Him the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, I know that Jesus didn't mean that He was a chicken. I know that. Here is what I'm trying to say. If it comes to believing what our Lord tells me in the Holy Scriptures or believing Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking or anybody else in a white lab coat or somebody else telling me this passage is only allegory or that passage is but a fable I want you to know that I am going to believe my Lord. I have seen drawings by Charles Darwin in a museum, he had great artistic talent and I've no reason to think him a bad person. Stephen Hawking has a brilliant mathematical mind, and I wish him all the very best. I realize that most of those who want to this is allegory or that a fable mean me no harm, but for me anyone but Christ is sinking sand, and on His rock I will take stand. Neither Darwin nor Hawking nor anyone in a white lab coat nor anyone telling me about allegory and fables went to the Cross for me. I do not owe them what I owe Him.
Are you beginning to see where this idea comes from? Can we continue this conversation? I would welcome it.

Grace & Peace,
Rollie Smith

[Rollie Smith]

Pastor Justin,
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I ask that you allow me to respond to some items you have posted,

You say:
“This fundamentalistic take on the Bible in the Lutheran church really surprised me ”

IMHO, We Lutherans are fundamentalists. In my catechism class more than 40 years ago I was taught that we Lutherans believe that we have Salvation by Grace through Faith. Salvation by Faith through Grace, my friend, one does not get more fundamental than Salvation by Faith through Grace! Hallelujah!

You say:
“This point of view shocked me, since I grew up Lutheran, I just kind of assumed that most people would know that some parts of the Bible are allegory, some are folklore, and some are true stories ”


I grew up Lutheran as well. I never heard the first word about Jonah being a fable. Our Pastor even went to the trouble to bring in to our catechism class a photo of a large fish which he said lived in the Mediterranean. The Pastor's point was that Jonah was not swallowed by a whale, but by a fish.

Now check out these references from the the Bible.

In 2 Kings 14:25 Jonah and his father are mentioned in a historical context, it seems strange that a fable would be mentioned in a history along with kings and other prophets.
Then in Matthew 12: 39-41 our Lord calls Jonah a prophet, not a fable, and Christ says just as Jonah was three days in the belly of the sea monster, He, Christ, will be three days in the belly of the earth. If we take Jonah's three days as fable, are we to take Christ's death and resurrection as a fable as well?
Were do we draw the line? I've heard tell that there is a Methodist Bishop who says that Christ's death and resurrection is but allegory. Please, please, tell me that you believe that our Lord's death and resurrection are historical facts!
Check out Matthew 16:4 and Luke 11:29-32 as well. I think this is what the Book of Faith Guide means by using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

I share this with you because I believe it and it is a blessing to me and I see you as a Brother in Christ and love you as a Brother and I want you to share in these blessings.

Grace and Peace
-Rollie Smith