Disappointment in Scripture

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

There are moments when we've all been a bit disappointed in what we have seen or not seen in scripture. I saw one person posted his disappointment in the contradictions. In our BoF groups two disappointments have come up:

1 - Why on Earth were the best storytellers not the ones who had the skills to write the Bible? It was the record keepers. They just don't tell a story with the same flare and tend to leave out the story portion, but include the lineage.

2 - The women's stories are often lacking. I just wish that I knew more, or say anything, about the midwife who caught Jesus. We'll never know, but I'm disappointed that we don't.

Has anyone else run across disappointments in the stories or the writing or other issues? How do we teach people to work through them?

The two I mentioned above are my own and it's led me on a path of study and discovery, as well as writing.

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

Hi Chad,

Here is my question to you: is there anything in scripture that you are or have been disappointed in? I really have come to terms with the fact that God gives us what we need, not necessarily what we want. But I also think that if we are going to inspire Bible Study as a process, we have to be honest about our struggle. This was one of mine. In my groups I hear a lot of insecurity about the ability to understand the Bible.

I think people are sometimes afraid to criticize the Bible, I encourage asking the questions. Just like your answers to my issues, there do exist. But we won't know that until we ask. Thank you for responding, please continue.

[Debbie Thompson]

I love your honesty in sharing that sometimes the stories are a little disappointing. I also know that sometimes they can be scary and other times quite fulfilling. I want to encourage you to look into finding a Feminist or African-American Womanist theology Bible commentary. I find that they open up the stories in new ways and will give you a new view at these stories. One that I have used and is used quite routinely in our seminary classes is Women's Bible Commentary edited by Carol A. Newsom and Sharon H. Ringe. The insights that they offer you may not agree with, but it will give you a new perspective into the role of women and how women read the Bible differently than men.

As to how do we teach people to work through disappointments, challenge others to read Lamentations or Job and you will discover that the Bible itself is full of disappointments. Remind your group members that God never gives up on us, even when we fall short of his ideals. So why would we want to give up on her?

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

Yes Chad!

I think this is what is getting to heart of Bobbie's post, since I know her post comes from a deep faith commitment and not a "I hate the Bible" one.

I know there are certain times that I wished the Bible didn't word something the way it was worded not out of disagreement with it, but based purely on writing style or complexity of the situation it was being written in.

Take the last study in the OtBoF. That Roman's text is a nightmare to understand simply because of translation into English. The "I do what I do not want, etc." is something we all face, but reading it the way it is translated (especially in the NRSV in this case) has the head spinning and asking the instant question of "What?"

Also, even some of the most poetic parts of the Bible are not that poetic or are barely read. Take Song of Songs. I love the way it is written, but when is the last time you heard it read? It gets read once in the lectionary and that is as an alternative text. But, even that as poetry is not the best example of poetry out there, so I know her struggle.

Thank you for the push.

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

I too struggle with Old Testament writings. Christians have a view of a loving God, that is what we were shown through Jesus, who is loving. But Jewish people tend to not see God as loving, but as an entity to be feared. At Passover, it isn't only celebration, it is remembrance of the hurt of not only the Hebrews, but the Egyptians who were killed. We aren't dealing with a fairy tale, where there's a good guy and a bad guy and a prince and princess who live happily ever after. It is our true history. It is the history that led to Christianity and it reflects humanity. Clearly, we are violent and at times cruel. That isn't new, that is what we come from.

I also believe that when we were made in God's image it was the whole package, beyond our understanding. God was at times vengeful, as are we. God is at times loving, as are we. God is at times remorseful, as are we. God gave us Jesus to help us to understand what it means to be human and how we are called to behave. And then He saved us. It's a pretty remarkable story, but it isn't black and white nor is it about the end, we were saved by Grace, therefore it is about our journey with God.

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

I think there are few things missing the in last entry that I would like to touch upon. As a pastor, I have often heard that God is a smiting unloving God in the Old Testament and a loving caring God in the person of Jesus. I have heard this and I have to admit, I cringe a little each and every time, not because of truth, but because of misunderstanding. Does it seem that way? Yes on the surface absolutely without any history behind it. Take the book of Amos for example. Most people avoid that book because it seems to be a doom and gloom book with lots of torture and smiting. But, look at what was happening. The rich were getting richer and taking advantage of the poor to the point of rape, robbery, and judicial injustice. The poor had no where to turn but God. Unfortunately, they could not even turn to the Temples that were created because their temples were government run, so they cried out for any type of justice. This is where Amos, and outsider, speaking for God comes in and does proclaim an anger filled proclamation, but it was for those who were persecuting the poor and broken. Let justice roll like a river in other words.

This misunderstanding happens more than a few times for folks, hence the importance of Bible study. To understand why things happen in the Old Testament and the history behind it helps see that God is as much as a loving God in the Old Testament as he is in the New Testament.

As for your comments about Jesus' death, I would disagree a bit. Just because he knew he was going to be resurrected didn't make it easier for him. Remember the whole Garden incident (Take this cup from me). He truly died, not half died, not sort of died, but died. He went through that. As for the not married and didn't have kids bit. What about those people that aren't married and don't have kids now, are they less than human as you are suggesting? If so, I have a huge problem with that.

As for those outside of the Kingdom. Yes, this is a hard one for me, but I also cannot discount free will. There are people who choose not to have God in his/her life. There are people who are going to reject Christ's life giving salvation and that pains me a lot. But, the loving God that I know, I fully trust will offer salvation even at the moment of death, but yes there will be some who reject that by their own choice.

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

You bring up many things, let me try to take them one at a time:

The issue of Jesus not knowing a lot about being human because he only walked the Earth for 33 years. Surely we all know of someone who was robbed of their life at a young age, I don't happen to think that I know more about living than they did. I also have known quite elderly people who for one reason or another never really embraced our journey of life. So, I don't think it has a lot to do with quantity of time, it is quality. I have know truly wise ten year olds and truly ignorant 60 year olds.

I don't know that God asks for kindness, so much as respecting one another. And seeing that we are all God's children He is faced with a complicated decision: how does he discipline one of his children for degrading, raping, killing, etc. another of his children? Does the teaching part of us win out over the protective part? I don't think so, He was protecting His other children.

Revelation shows us a letter from John written to the persecuted. Would a letter from a Concentration camp victim look any different? When one is living the dregs of Hell (and at that time wasn't that the experience of the Christians?), then writing reflects that situation.

I don't know who will be in Hell. But I do know that we have to give God credit that when He created us as His children, He wanted us to end up with Him. He wanted us to go back to peace. I also believe that if Hitler was my child, I would banish him. That's me, that's my world view, God's is different and God has that infinite ability to know our hearts. There are things that we cannot and will not understand, we are limited by these human bodies.

God is the creator of infinity, science, emotions and free will. When those things all come together, things get sticky.

We have all have things happen in our lives that challenge our faith. God can handle the questions and the anger and the frustrations that we feel. It seems as though you are questioning a lot right now and I am no Biblical scholar, but continue the questions. It is a part of your process and we are all on our own journey.

Perry Killion said:

I'm not sure what makes either God or Jesus an expert on what it means to be human. Some would say that Jesus knows because he walked the earth for 33 years. I am a bit older than that and I can tell you that I have learned a lot about what it means to be human after I was 33. As the story goes, Jesus never raised children, did not face the ravages of old age or debilitating illness. Even death was different for him because he had a special connection and had every reason to believe he would be resurrected. The loss of your life is not really that big of a deal if you know you're going to get it back.
Human cruelty is a given. No argument there.
But cruelty from a god who expects kindness from those who are less able than he, is hypocritical.
Yes...Jesus is a bright spot in the Bible, no question. But even that is tainted by his complicity with a god who is willing, ready, and able to pitch his enemies into a lake of fire and brimstone from which there is no reprieve. If that's the best he can do then he really is no different than his adversary except maybe in power.That final act in Revelation demonstrates that the only right is might.
Jesus showed us a better face and I aspire to most of his teachings. Revelation just shows that the Jews were right; god's essential nature is no better than before.
He is just like the old human war lords who rewarded their friends and cruelly punished their enemies.
How does that jive with Jesus' command to love our enemies? And Paul's words...Love is patient, love kind, love does not return evil for evil....etc.
I have been taught the whole purpose of heaven is to live happily ever after.
I would NEVER be able to do that knowing that sentient beings are tortured in hell for whatever reason. I don't believe any person of good conscious could.



Bobbie Steinhauer said:

I too struggle with Old Testament writings. Christians have a view of a loving God, that is what we were shown through Jesus, who is loving. But Jewish people tend to not see God as loving, but as an entity to be feared. At Passover, it isn't only celebration, it is remembrance of the hurt of not only the Hebrews, but the Egyptians who were killed. We aren't dealing with a fairy tale, where there's a good guy and a bad guy and a prince and princess who live happily ever after. It is our true history. It is the history that led to Christianity and it reflects humanity. Clearly, we are violent and at times cruel. That isn't new, that is what we come from.
I also believe that when we were made in God's image it was the whole package, beyond our understanding. God was at times vengeful, as are we. God is at times loving, as are we. God is at times remorseful, as are we. God gave us Jesus to help us to understand what it means to be human and how we are called to behave. And then He saved us. It's a pretty remarkable story, but it isn't black and white nor is it about the end, we were saved by Grace, therefore it is about our journey with God.

[Kara Brooks]

Perry,

My heart aches for you. Believing in a God that you can't see as connected to humanity let alone to your personal experiences in a painful place to be in. God is supposed to be the one constant in our lives, and if that constant does not seem available, it's hard to see anything about Him in a good light.

I think part of the problem that occurs when people look at God has to do with the boxes we humans like to put everything in. There's no denying it, really, people like boxes. It makes things easier to understand, if when we look at them, we can immediately have assumptions about how someone is going look and act and be. The thing about God, though, is that we don't have any boxes big enough to put Him in, so He ends up being labeled by things that don't really fit Him or His nature.

God is love. But the word love is a box. We don't really know what that means. We called God "God' because that's a name we can comprehend. And we see God as vengeful because if one of us decided to smite someone, it WOULD be vengeful. But God isn't human.

He ISN'T one of us...and so we can't define His actions by the way we behave. Yes, we're created in the image of God, but that dosen't mean that God acts like US, it means we, in some way, shape or form act like HIM. Who knows what that way actually is? I'm pretty sure that God's acts of violence don't actually have anything to do with Him being angry.

Did Jesus really have all that much extra help? I can't say I've had a lot of extra theology classes in my life, but this is what I remember. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man while He was on earth...but He didn't ever use the "God powers" while He was on earth. Otherwise, the devil trying to tempt Him in the desert wouldn't have been impressive. The miracles He did were through God, not because He was God. If you look at it that way, it means that Jesus didn't have any more help dying than any of us would. Death should just be an investment for us, too, right....since we know we're going to heaven. And wasn't there something in the crucifixion story about God turning away from Jesus? That's not something I'll ever have to experience, as long as I don't choose to turn away..and that wasn't the choice Jesus made, and God didn't stay. I can't even fathom that kind of pain.

I'd disagree that suffering is easier to get through if you know it's going to end. When you are in that much pain, whether it be physical, psychological, or emotional, all you're trying to do is get through that instant. You're not thinking ahead, because you can't. The future does NOT exist, because your only goal is to get through your experience of the moment. Actually, it's not even that mature of a thought process. It's more like you shut down so you CAN get through that moment.

Maybe I'm biased on the whole human experience thing, since I've got a good decade to go before I'm even approaching 33, but really, it's not like you can't know what it means to be human until 35 or 40. Of course there are experiences that I haven't had, and I can't say I know what it's like to hold a child in my arms that belongs to me, but that does not make me less human. It also does not mean that the story and reality of having children is something that I can't have opinions or feelings on. There are lots of people who will never exist as a minority of any kind, but that dosen't mean that they shouldn't have any opinions on the subject, as long as people are respected in the process. Being a member of a minority community has been a major part of my life experience, but that dosen't mean that I think straight white males are any less human than me.

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

Great post Kara, I'm still processing it. It touches on those experiences of God that are beyond our understanding. Very well articulated.

Perry, I don't think anyone is ready to give up. What are you looking for in Jesus? Clearly you must have some relationship as you are a parish assistant. I'm curious if you would be willing to share (in this very public forum) some of your journey that has brought you to where you are. What would you tell someone else coming to you with your challenges of Christ?

The 6.5 billion people on Earth speaks to the fact that we all have a parent/child relationship in our lives, but that for all of us it is as children. I know many people who do not have children who are protective, passionate, strong, leaders and empathetic. Qualities that are phenomenal in parents. I also know many people who are parents who don't possess any of those qualities and their children would be better served reared by others. Jesus never was a woman either, but that isn't required for me to believe that he could empathize with me.

Don't rich kids also deserve grace? God certainly makes it clear that with wealth comes challenges, many, many. So if Jesus did have a "rich kid" mentality, does that then mean that He had His own struggles to overcome? It may have been a harder fall than for someone who was not counting on their father to save them. Just a thought.

[Pastor Justin Johnson]

Perry,

I think Kara's post is right on target. I also think Bobbie's has some fantastic points, so I am just going to supplement those since you named me specifically.

In your very logical criticism, which I absolutely appreciate, since I love logical arguments, you are missing a few points which for me, when I was where you were, helped me open up a little.

I really think you have to look at Luther's discussions on Free Will, or as it is called sometimes the Freedom of the Will. When you keep discussing the point of eternal torment, you keep saying that it is God who does this. What I would argue is that it is not God who does this, but we do by our choice. God constantly gives us chance after chance, which is grace. As I typed before, I even believe in death God will give us a final chance for salvation. Due to free will, there will be some who reject this offer of grace and love, and will choose for himself/herself to not to accept God's grace. This is NOT due to religion as some fundamentalists will say, but rather for some reason that I do not know, but ultimately it is their choice.

As for the eternal torment. Fire and brimstone, eternal sulfur, etc, many of those are allegories to the feelings one will have as they are separated from God's love. For me, this is what hell is. It is a separation from the love of God, but again by a person's own choosing. Honestly, man to man, pastor to person on the internet, this is what I am worried most about your path right now. For me, there are lots of types of questions. I am worried about the path of questioning you are on right now.

As for Jesus not really being worried about death. Again, let's look at now. I have full faith in salvation, is this going to make death easier for me? Possibly. I won't know until I get there. But, do I think the pain and suffering that Jesus went through was real? Absolutely. I guess it is just a place where we are going to disagree.

Now for the children thing. I will say that I don't have children, but I was a Youth Minister for years. Today people still come to me for advice on raising their children. Again, I think it is a place where we will disagree.

I will hang in there as long as you want me to. I have worked with youth who were struggling for years and it is a major part of my job :-)

[Chad King]

(I am entering the conversation a little late...)

For me, one thing that disappoints and frustrates me about the Bible is what it doesn't say. It doesn't articulate clear and concise answers for each and every situation. It doesn't tell me what Jesus was doing that whole time between the ages of 12 and 30. It doesn't give me the right words to say that will bring comfort to those who are in their deepest grief, and the words I do find can seem especially empty at those times. It doesn't provide detail about the right way to deal with annoying telemarketers or why God would let something terrible happen to good people. It just isn't a very "clean" instruction manual.

The flip side of that is in experiencing the struggle and growth that happens by grappling with those questions, frustrations, doubts, and insecurities. Those force me outside of myself, allow me to look deeper, to question, be more fully human, and to trust more fully. God is bigger than my doubts and my frustrations, and if that weren't the case, we wouldn't have a very powerful God, and I have faith that God will always be bigger than any doubt or frustartion I may have.

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

That was so well articulated, thank you for that. Isn't it true that what challenges us most in life is also what leads us to the most growth? Phenomenal this life that God gives us.

Chad King said:

(I am entering the conversation a little late...)

For me, one thing that disappoints and frustrates me about the Bible is what it doesn't say. It doesn't articulate clear and concise answers for each and every situation. It doesn't tell me what Jesus was doing that whole time between the ages of 12 and 30. It doesn't give me the right words to say that will bring comfort to those who are in their deepest grief, and the words I do find can seem especially empty at those times. It doesn't provide detail about the right way to deal with annoying telemarketers or why God would let something terrible happen to good people. It just isn't a very "clean" instruction manual.

The flip side of that is in experiencing the struggle and growth that happens by grappling with those questions, frustrations, doubts, and insecurities. Those force me outside of myself, allow me to look deeper, to question, be more fully human, and to trust more fully. God is bigger than my doubts and my frustrations, and if that weren't the case, we wouldn't have a very powerful God, and I have faith that God will always be bigger than any doubt or frustartion I may have.

[John Bicego]

At the beginning you ask "How do we teach people to work through them?"(their disappointments with scripture) Maybe start at the beginning and state that the Book of Faith is not a book of fact but a book of hidden truth. That the stories included to teach us truths are just that...stories. Do we really feel it necessary to rationalize or try to explain the Noah story, the six day creation story, the tower of babel, destruction of sodom and gomorrah, the giving of the ten commandments, Joshua's victory, (we could go on and on) in the face of both scientific discovery and what our current teaching of God as a loving God tells us? For instance in the parting of the Red Sea story I struggle for two different reasons. First, scientifically it wouldn't happen. Second and more importantly I struggle with a loving God who would lure the Egyptian army into a certain; awful death. Again, I could go on and on as I'm sure all reading this could. I read and hear only hints of backing away from these stories as fact, as both history and a truthful depiction of the nature of our God but the giant step is never made. That is one disappointment. Sorry that I'm late to the discussion. Hope not too late. Wonderful insights so far.