What is God trying to tell us?

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

Discerning God's will is not my forte. So, I share my thoughts with you all, and I'd like to know what you think as well.

The vote on the Sexuality Statement could not have been closer - literally. We were all called to that room - on our faith journeys - to intersect with one another and cast that ballot. That the margin was so close, could it be that God wants us to love one another and find a way through our differences?

The tornado touched down - on the Convention Center and the Lutheran Church. This caused the voting members to be stuck in a room together to discuss this. Is the significance that the tornado was there or that not one person was harmed and little damage was done? Is it possible that God is asking us to weather the storm, because He's got bigger plans for us and we need to be united rather than divided?

Almost every other initiative passed with a 90% + margin. Malaria (which will save countless lives of the poor and children), Fair Treatment for Immigrants Policy (because there people suffering desperately), HIV/AIDS (also will save lives of poor), Braille and Other Aids for Worship for the Blind (who will get to experience worship and will bring some to the table), Full Communion with Methodists (new brothers and sisters in Christ).

What is God telling your heart?

[The Rev Patsy Koeneke]

Hi, Bobbie, I want to reply to this, but will wait til my thoughts are clearly formed. I'm planning to preach on this topic on Sunday, Aug 30, as the Lectionary texts for this week seem to be "speaking" to those of us in the ELCA in light of the votes last week. So, I'll comment in a few days... thanks for starting this conversation!

[R Don Wright]

Hello. I celebrated (privately with friends) the vote that welcomed gay and lesbian people into the full life of the ELCA. I remain concerned for the well being of the ELCA and our many congregations that feel stressed out by these decisions. I rejoice and give thanks to God for giving us Bishop Mark Hanson to lead us through these times and so many other able leaders and faithful voices.

The battleground may be homosexuality, but the war is about the authority of scripture. My new favorite saying is, "In the church, scripture is all aces, but Jesus' message of grace and truth is trump." That being the case if the scriptures condemn homosexuality is it possible that Jesus' message of grace and truth can declare the existence of an acceptable and God-pleasing homosexual lifestyle?

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

Now, I have to preface my comment with - I was probably the queen of the Bible illiterate, until the BoF initiative kicked off and I found people who taught with passion. I'll try to say this with some level of articulation.

I found myself searching scripture for direction before Assembly and here are some of the conclusions that I drew from what I read:

We are told very clearly in Matthew and Luke - that it is not our place to judge, that we will be judged as we judge and that if we practice forgiveness we will be forgiven. Then in Mark, Jesus tells us which are the most important commandments - love me, love one another, all others hang on those. Maybe it will take our existence as human beings to learn how to simply love Him and one another.

In Luke, Jesus also says that the disciples could not be disciples is they could not leave all of their things and follow him. Now, pastors are in many ways called to be disciples and though they may think that they are repentant for sinning, have they really given up everything to follow Jesus? Do they live among the poor? Do they live only to necessity, not excess? Do they value things? Than wouldn't these also be unrepentant sins?

Adding into this mix of scripture, the most important of these being love, what you have done to the least of my people, etc. I found a scripture that I had no recollection of ever having read: the last verse of John, Jesus did many things and if all of them were written down, even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

It's on that last verse that everything stuck for me. Not everything that Jesus did was written down. The Disciples were pretty shocked at who Jesus hung out with and ministered to. Who am I to say that Jesus did not minister to gay and lesbian people in relationship with one another? I can't see Him turning them away. Would he not allow them to follow their call into discipleship? Would he not allow them to follow their call into loving relationship?

The answer for me is, I don't know, but everything that Jesus has taught me is err on the side of grace and love. The scriptures condemn me for many, many things, I still get to serve God and I think sometimes He is pleased and delights in me. How can I take that honor away from someone else?

When the votes came through I cried tears of joy for my brothers and sisters who were formally accepted into the ELCA. I also cried tears of sorrow for my brothers and sisters who believe that they were rejected by the ELCA. These two groups are so similar in emotion and so different in interpretation that I don't know that they could bridge the gap to heal together.

So in not so short, I believe that it is possible, but it must be taken as seriously and with the commitment of a marriage. And I'm sure it will require a lot of time and consideration to articulate what this will mean. I apologize for the length, I am still processing.

Now, what do you think?

[bruce metcalf]

first off ,,we are all called to be disciples,,,not just Pastors !! And we have all fallen short of our calling by letting worldly wants overcloud the needs of others !!
2nd I have been stuggling with the vote as have many others and have come up with 2 thoughts !!
(1) If the vote was taken as Jesus told us ,,to love oneanother I'm all for it ,but
(2) If it was taken to become more politically correct then we've taken a step backword !!
bruce

Bobbie Steinhauer said:

Now, I have to preface my comment with - I was probably the queen of the Bible illiterate, until the BoF initiative kicked off and I found people who taught with passion. I'll try to say this with some level of articulation.

I found myself searching scripture for direction before Assembly and here are some of the conclusions that I drew from what I read:

We are told very clearly in Matthew and Luke - that it is not our place to judge, that we will be judged as we judge and that if we practice forgiveness we will be forgiven. Then in Mark, Jesus tells us which are the most important commandments - love me, love one another, all others hang on those. Maybe it will take our existence as human beings to learn how to simply love Him and one another.

In Luke, Jesus also says that the disciples could not be disciples is they could not leave all of their things and follow him. Now, pastors are in many ways called to be disciples and though they may think that they are repentant for sinning, have they really given up everything to follow Jesus? Do they live among the poor? Do they live only to necessity, not excess? Do they value things? Than wouldn't these also be unrepentant sins?

Adding into this mix of scripture, the most important of these being love, what you have done to the least of my people, etc. I found a scripture that I had no recollection of ever having read: the last verse of John, Jesus did many things and if all of them were written down, even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

It's on that last verse that everything stuck for me. Not everything that Jesus did was written down. The Disciples were pretty shocked at who Jesus hung out with and ministered to. Who am I to say that Jesus did not minister to gay and lesbian people in relationship with one another? I can't see Him turning them away. Would he not allow them to follow their call into discipleship? Would he not allow them to follow their call into loving relationship?

The answer for me is, I don't know, but everything that Jesus has taught me is err on the side of grace and love. The scriptures condemn me for many, many things, I still get to serve God and I think sometimes He is pleased and delights in me. How can I take that honor away from someone else?

When the votes came through I cried tears of joy for my brothers and sisters who were formally accepted into the ELCA. I also cried tears of sorrow for my brothers and sisters who believe that they were rejected by the ELCA. These two groups are so similar in emotion and so different in interpretation that I don't know that they could bridge the gap to heal together.

So in not so short, I believe that it is possible, but it must be taken as seriously and with the commitment of a marriage. And I'm sure it will require a lot of time and consideration to articulate what this will mean. I apologize for the length, I am still processing.

Now, what do you think?

[Bobbie Steinhauer]

Bruce,

I know that there is a lot of concern out there about political correctness. I can also promise you that when I cast my votes it was only about loving one another. I have seen the agony on both sides of this issue and certainly felt it at Churchwide. No one that I saw, spoke with or interacted with took their vote lightly.

I agree that we are all called to be disciples and that we all fall short. That is my point. How can we judge that homosexuality is a worse sin than greed? There is no worse and we are all unrepentant.

Bruce, would you share some of your struggles with the vote? I really think that the only was through our differences is, well, through them. And we can't get there if we don't talk about them. So let me say, thank you for responding and disagreeing with me.

[R Don Wright]

The book of Proverbs offers this wisdom: “One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord” (Proverbs 17.15). I think this proverb describes the current debate on homosexuality fairly clearly. Some faithful Christians sincerely believe that blessing gay unions and ordaining practicing openly gay or lesbian Christians would be to justify the wicked. Other faithful Christians sincerely believe that refusing to do so is to condemn the righteous. Both sides shake their heads in disbelief at the conclusions and resolve of those who disagree with them.

Clearly the Church must come to an understanding regarding gay and lesbian Christians. Are gay and lesbian Christians simply different from straight people the way tulips are different from roses, or are gay and lesbian Christians dysfunctional heterosexuals? If gay and lesbian Christians are simply different then the Church dare not commit the abomination of condemning the righteous. It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? (Romans 8.33b-34). Rather, let the Church rejoice and celebrate the diversity of creation that God has made, for then God has given even to homosexuals the repentance that leads to life (Acts 11.18).

Repentance for gay and lesbian Christians, in this regard, is often the realization—“coming to one’s senses”—that they must die to the desire to be saved through their striving to conform to heterosexual norms (i.e., tulips vainly and perversely attempting to transform themselves into roses). Rather, they must learn to live by faith as well-adjusted gay and lesbian Christians (repentance from dead works and faith toward God, Hebrews 6.1). If gay and lesbian Christians are simply different—tulips, not un-roses—then the Church has no reason not to welcome them as part of the one body in Christ, and individually as members one of another with gifts that differ according to the grace given to us (Romans 12.5-6).

On the other hand, if the Church concludes that gay and lesbian Christians are not merely different, but are in fact dysfunctional heterosexual Christians, then the Church must not commit the equally abominable act of justifying the wicked. Clearly, those who persist stubbornly in sin must be called to repentance and freely offered the promises of the Gospel, for God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they should turn from their ways and live (Ezekiel 18.23). But how shall they live? As well-adjusted tulips or as dysfunctional homosexuals who have conformed to heterosexual norms?