Catholics vs Lutherans

[Abby Kalina]

What is so different about our two groups that we just can't be in the same church?

[Rob McNair]

Five Reasons I can think of:
1. Lutherans support female pastors whereas only men can be priests in the Catholic church. In addition, priests are not allowed to be married, whereas Lutheran pastors can marry.
2. Lutherans only have 2 sacraments: baptism and communion. Catholics have 7: baptism, communion, confession, confirmation, anointing of the sick (last rites), holy orders, and matrimony. Luther believed only baptism and communion were commanded by Jesus.
3. In the Augsburg Confession it is clear that the reformers favored keeping the practice of private confession and absolution of sins. Somewhere along the way Lutherans dropped that practice which the Catholics still do.
4. The Catholic church believes in the primacy of the Pope, that God speaks through him. Luther didn't like the hierarchy and politics of the Catholic church. While we have a bishop, I do not believe he has the authority to mandate but rather is present to support and encourage the churches under his jurisdiction. I believe in the Catholic church the bishop has the authority to mandate how indivdual churches operate.
5. The call process is very different. Catholic priests are appointed by the bishop, so the church has no voice in determining who serves them. In the Lutheran church, individual churches manage the call process and get to decide who they feel God is calling to serve them.

It would be nice to be unified, but I do not see that happening. Too many differences like these.

[Tracy Bieger]

There is a church in Fargo that actually is both Catholic and I believe Lutheran. They are connected by a shared narthex, but have separate sanctuaries.

[Amber Kalina]

if luther believed in only comunion and baptism why do we still go through confirmation?
i don't get the whole pope thing. what do lutherans think about the pope? dont catholics elect the pope?
there are a lot of statues in catholic chruches, or at least the really huge churches, why are there so many?

[Abby Kalina]

i'm sorry i screwed up...again. the comment over this one was actually written by me. i really have to start checking whoze logged on.

[Rob McNair]

Confirmation is technically an "affirmation of baptism" ceremony. You are reaffirming your beliefs in the promises that were made when you were baptized as an infant. So really it is just a renewal of your baptism. There is nothing in the Bible that says that needs to be done, so really it is a human tradition. Christ never commanded us to torture 8th and 9th grade students with Wednesday night classes. Confession is certainly important but Luther would say it does not meet the definition of a sacrament.

As far as the pope, I am not sure what the official stance is but as Lutherans we do not abide by anything the pope says. He is the spiritual leader of the Catholic church and they believe he alone has the authority of God to guide and lead the church. Luther would say we all have access to God's will through the Holy Spirit, so no one person should be exalted in a position of authority like that in the church.

As far as statues, the Catholics are big on "saints" which are historic figures that they believe achieved an exceptional level of holiness. So basically they are better than most. I would think Luther would have disagreed with this. The truth is we are all sinners and we are all saints. As soon as we confess our sins and partake of the Lord's Supper, at that precise moment we are washed clean and made a saint. What do you think of that St. Abby? I think Luther would have disagreed with putting only some people on the pedalstal of sainthood.

[Tracy Bieger]

The subject of the statues and such came up while I was at the Luther Confessions class, that Rob ditched out on. :)
Anyway, he said that Lutherans are okay with statues, pictures, religious jewelry, etc., as long as we recognize them as plain old human artwork, or paying homage to someone. We DO NOT pray through or worship them. Then it is idolatry.

[Abby Kalina]

is merry the only woman saint or are there more? was mother tereasa considered a saint?

[Tracy Bieger]

There are LOTS of female saints, including Mother Teresa and Joan of Arc. Use this link to see a list of them:
http://www.catholic.org/saints/female.php

Also, it's MARY............not "merry", as in jolly.;)

[Timothy]

If you don't mind a few comments from someone outside your congregation ...

And I mean everything here to further a conversation, not to be critical.

"Religion" is not quite the right word. Lutherans and Catholics share the Christian religion. Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism are *denominations* of Christianity. Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism are five of the religions people still practice.

Why pick on the word? Because to say "denomination" says, truthfully, that we have things *in common* as well as differences.

Roman Catholics and Lutherans share things like, baptism, communion, the Creeds, etc. in common.

Along with the other things discussed in this thread, our *interpretation* of the Creeds, of the Bible, of what happens in Communion are different.

The differences that existed 500 years ago have faded. We have a great deal in common. There remain some fundamental differences, and some -- superficial -- differences.

The superficial differences are the most obvious as they are the easiest to see. Religions are part of culture. In the US and as protestants we don't tend to be as aware of this as people of other cultures and countries. In other parts of the world people don't separate religion or denomination from their national or ethnic identity. Just like if you're Japanese you just *are* and *do* Shinto and Buddhist things. Or if you're Croatian and live in Zagreb, you'll just grow up don't Roman Catholic things because there really isn't anything else and it's what you do if you live there. And there are Irish Roman Catholic things and Croatian Roman Catholic things.

Just like there are German Lutheran things and Norwegian Lutheran things and even Japanese Lutheran things. Lutefisk doesn't fly at Denenchofu Lutheran Church in Tokyo at Christmas time, but eating Lutefisk is not core to being Lutheran.

We tend to notice the visible differences. Things like using holy water, crossing, veneration of saints, relics and the like. These differences come from deeper differences.

Probably the two most significant are Authority and Grace.

"Authority" is big. How direct is your connection to God? Do you have a right to believe what you want? What is the purpose and role of the Bible? How do we interpret, and who interprets, the Bible, the Creeds, and our personal experiences of life and God?

The Roman Catholic Culture (as different from what's written down) tends to put a "layer" between humans and God. Priests, saints, and popes can "intercede". In a sense we may not have the right to approach God directly from their perspective. So we ask saints to intercede for us: take our prayers to God. Pretty much like asking a big brother or sister to ask Mom or Dad because we don't want to screw it up.

If there are questions about religious matters the priest, bishop and pope have authority in Roman Catholicism to "speak for" or interpret God and God's word. The Pope doesn't do this often, and not everything he says is "infallible". Where protestants can and do have huge debates over the meaning of biblical passages and how they should guide our actions, in theory at least, Roman Catholics don't. The decision and the interpretation of the Pope is final.

In the upcoming ELCA convention there will be issues hotly debated, and policies made like in Congress, quite a different thing from Cardinals and Bishops advising the Pope who makes the final decision.

And beneath all this lies the difference. In Lutheranism there is no one or nothing between the individual and God. We pray, God hears us. In Lutheran tradition our authority is not an individual, but the personal faith and conscience of the individual. This is what lies behind Martin Luther's most famous quote "Here I stand, I can do no other."

Really cool and really scary. I have the right to my own faith, to make up my own mind about my faith and how I will act on it, how it will inform my life. I have *freedom* to do that.

But if I have that right and freedom, I also must bear the *responsibility*, and the *consequences*.

Part of why "Here I stand" is such a memorable quote is because of the consequences Luther faced in saying that. He believed he had the right and responsibility to follow his faith and conscience, but he knew full well that to do so would likely cost him his life. Indeed, to the people at the trial (Diet of Worms) it wasn't just his life, but his immortal soul on the line. He probably thought so himself.

Grace saves us. God is not a judge, or the Emperor at the Diet of Worms. God assures us that we are dear and loved. We are forgiven. No burning in hell if we get it wrong. (Granted, this doesn't get you out of earthly consequences. ;) If Mom busts you at the cookie jar, God's Grace may not "save" you. ) That's the point of the Jesus story, the Gospel, the Good News. At least as we see it.

So while we have the responsibility of being priests ourselves, we have the assurance of God's Grace to strengthen us as we exercise that.

Can we be in the same church (building), yes.

But the way I see it ... I shared a room with my brother when I was little. It was all right. There were good things about it. But it was awfully nice to have my own room when I got into high school. I had a roommate in college, but it was very nice to have my own apartment after I graduated.

Within *The Church* (with a big "C" it means "all of Christianity" or "the body of Christ") there is room for *churches* (with the little "c" it means "the building the congregation meets in"). Do you want the same posters on the walls as your roommate? Like the same music?

Hope it helps. Sorry for the essay.

[Abby Kalina]

timothy, i am sorry if it sounded like i was saying that catholics and letherans had a completely different religion. that's not what i was trying to say. i was just wondering how our churches were different and what, if any, were the different practices that each church did.

[Timothy]

It's quite all right, Abby. Some of it was just a "knee-jerk" reaction to seeing "religion" where it should be "denomination".

I hope you found more in my message than simply that clarification. There *are* differences. The two I mention -- Authority and Grace -- are *huge*.

There are other differences, to be sure, as have been mentioned: veneration of the saints, holy water, crossing, clergy, number of sacraments and more. And these differences can also be significant.

All I was doing was starting from the religion/denomination comment and moving into the differences as I saw them. Pretty much what Rob was saying but in different words.

I wasn't offended by what you have to say and I hope you were not offended by what I had to say.

As for another question you put up, yes, there are many women who are saints besides Mary. Anna comes to mind who was the woman who "recognized" Jesus as the Christ when his parents brought him to the temple to be blessed. Her mention is right after the bit about "Lord now let your servant depart in peace ..." -- sorry I don't always remember books and chapters well. Anna -- often called St. Anne -- is famous in Lutheran circles because it was she who Luther called on to save him in the lightening storm where he famously vowed to become a monk if he lived through the storm. (She might be the patron saint of miners which may be why she was on his mind -- I believe his father was a miner.)

I don't know if Mary Magdalene is a saint, but she could be. Joan of Arc was sanctified, I believe. And then there is St. Bridget who was less likely a real person, and more likely a savvy missionary to Briton co-opting a favorite Goddess of the Celts -- Brigid or Bridget. There are others. Those few have stuck with me from my gleanings of history.

Thank you for the conversation.

[Abby Kalina]

what do you mean by authority?